[He may not realize it, but Waverly sure does. She also doesn't particularly like that conclusion and she makes a face.]
So we have issues with being tortured, we fight back and when we become too much trouble, he abandons us.
[There's a beat, when she closes her eyes and holds up her hands.]
I'm sorry, but I don't think that there was ever a point where people thought that being tortured was a good thing. There's a reason they call it torture. So chalking it up to his "archaic views" doesn't really work for me.
[Well it almost sounds wrong when she puts it that way. He frowns.]
That isn't what I meant. I... don't think he's hurting us by choice. He doesn't see a problem with the system as it exists here because it's the only one he knows. He needs to be helped to progress past the Hammurabian ideals he's normalized.
He's a figurehead that makes a convenient target, but he's being coerced. He's punished for our rebellions. What if the groups thought they were being abandoned when he was just locked away to be tortured on their behalf? I believe there's a reason that we're being discouraged from considering the entity prompting his behavior. Our lists don't come from him. He isn't responsible for our arrivals or releases.
[Waverly makes a face. Part of her does understand where his empathy is coming from. He had to make sense of this place after being here for a year. But she also doesn't think that that excuses any of this.]
It isn't just about him being a figurehead. Everyone has a choice.
[She thinks of Bobo and how she thought that maybe Robert Svane was in there once upon a time. She wanted to believe that he wouldn't hurt her. And then he turned around and killed her father because he wanted to stay on Bulshar's good side. Whoever Lucifer's Bulshar is, she doesn't particularly care. It doesn't make what he's doing right.
She holds up her hands.]
Look, it sounds like you two are close, and I'm not wanting to pick a fight. But I think you're giving him a little too much credit. He's literally one of the most famous rebels in existence. What it sounds like to me is that he doesn't think we're worth rebelling for. What he's getting out of punishing us is worth more to him than trying to help us.
[It's a kind of sense, twisted and shaped as it is by his trauma. It keeps him from pushing away from the conversation, though, when she mentions that everyone has a choice. That's what he tells Lucifer often, in confidence, as he struggles over the state of their collective imprisonment.]
He thinks we're worth risking a great deal, actually. But it's not as if a rebellion on that scale is something that can be achieved overnight.
[His eyes shift away, and he signals to a bartender. This is a conversation that needs some scotch in it.]
What makes you think there are no plans? Seems like a bit of a cognitive leap to reach a conclusion like that.
[She hasn't been here very long. Everything she's seen seems to be evidence to the contrary, and a lot of Lucifer sucking up to the people upstairs. But then, she realizes, given how close Lucifer and Fitz are, that it's possible he knows something she doesn't.]
[Some people see sucking up, and others see keeping one's enemies close.]
Something like that. There aren't many places here that might accommodate conversation of that sort. Hard to tell who's listening when so many demons have enhanced senses.
Waverly reaches for her notebook and starts writing something, almost like she's taking notes. For one, sound proofing a saferoom at Hella Shorty's might be a good idea. But in the interim, they can make due with hoping it's in a place where demons won't actively go.]
Good point. I guess finding places like that should probably be high on the priority list.
[He trails off as she writes. He's quiet as he accepts his drink order and knocks a gulp of it back.]
But I hope you understand that a plan like what you're suggesting would take time. It's the sort of thing that can only be attempted once. It needs to be perfectly crafted to maximize the chance for success.
[Not maybe in the sense that he's wrong - the plan should absolutely take time and make sure it minimizes as much collateral damage as possible. She tears out the page she was scribbling on, and folds it in half before passing it to him. It reads:
If you want a demon-free space, at least in intent, come to Hella Shorty's.
The address in Hellburbia is underneath.]
But I don't think that should preclude us from trying.
[He accepts the note and glances at it briefly before stowing it in a pocket. He doesn't make any further eye contact.]
Getting late, yeah? Perhaps we can chat more another time. Nothing but time available to us, after all. I'm certain we've covered everything you set out to discuss.
[If he has an issue with a change in venue, he doesn't vocalize it.]
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no subject
So we have issues with being tortured, we fight back and when we become too much trouble, he abandons us.
[There's a beat, when she closes her eyes and holds up her hands.]
I'm sorry, but I don't think that there was ever a point where people thought that being tortured was a good thing. There's a reason they call it torture. So chalking it up to his "archaic views" doesn't really work for me.
no subject
That isn't what I meant. I... don't think he's hurting us by choice. He doesn't see a problem with the system as it exists here because it's the only one he knows. He needs to be helped to progress past the Hammurabian ideals he's normalized.
He's a figurehead that makes a convenient target, but he's being coerced. He's punished for our rebellions. What if the groups thought they were being abandoned when he was just locked away to be tortured on their behalf? I believe there's a reason that we're being discouraged from considering the entity prompting his behavior. Our lists don't come from him. He isn't responsible for our arrivals or releases.
no subject
It isn't just about him being a figurehead. Everyone has a choice.
[She thinks of Bobo and how she thought that maybe Robert Svane was in there once upon a time. She wanted to believe that he wouldn't hurt her. And then he turned around and killed her father because he wanted to stay on Bulshar's good side. Whoever Lucifer's Bulshar is, she doesn't particularly care. It doesn't make what he's doing right.
She holds up her hands.]
Look, it sounds like you two are close, and I'm not wanting to pick a fight. But I think you're giving him a little too much credit. He's literally one of the most famous rebels in existence. What it sounds like to me is that he doesn't think we're worth rebelling for. What he's getting out of punishing us is worth more to him than trying to help us.
no subject
He thinks we're worth risking a great deal, actually. But it's not as if a rebellion on that scale is something that can be achieved overnight.
[His eyes shift away, and he signals to a bartender. This is a conversation that needs some scotch in it.]
What makes you think there are no plans? Seems like a bit of a cognitive leap to reach a conclusion like that.
no subject
[She hasn't been here very long. Everything she's seen seems to be evidence to the contrary, and a lot of Lucifer sucking up to the people upstairs. But then, she realizes, given how close Lucifer and Fitz are, that it's possible he knows something she doesn't.]
Unless there's something he's shared with you?
no subject
Something like that. There aren't many places here that might accommodate conversation of that sort. Hard to tell who's listening when so many demons have enhanced senses.
no subject
Waverly reaches for her notebook and starts writing something, almost like she's taking notes. For one, sound proofing a saferoom at Hella Shorty's might be a good idea. But in the interim, they can make due with hoping it's in a place where demons won't actively go.]
Good point. I guess finding places like that should probably be high on the priority list.
no subject
[He trails off as she writes. He's quiet as he accepts his drink order and knocks a gulp of it back.]
But I hope you understand that a plan like what you're suggesting would take time. It's the sort of thing that can only be attempted once. It needs to be perfectly crafted to maximize the chance for success.
no subject
[Not maybe in the sense that he's wrong - the plan should absolutely take time and make sure it minimizes as much collateral damage as possible. She tears out the page she was scribbling on, and folds it in half before passing it to him. It reads:
If you want a demon-free space, at least in intent, come to Hella Shorty's.
The address in Hellburbia is underneath.]
But I don't think that should preclude us from trying.
no subject
Getting late, yeah? Perhaps we can chat more another time. Nothing but time available to us, after all. I'm certain we've covered everything you set out to discuss.
[If he has an issue with a change in venue, he doesn't vocalize it.]
no subject
Thanks again, for coming. I know you and Wynonna don't see eye to eye, but I appreciate you talking to me.
[Waverly also doesn't agree with everything, but she's ... a little more civil than her sister.]